When we carry on our discussion on and off the overlandtrails list, we get a little confused, kind of like Peter Lassen on his trail ;-) Anyway, Will responded directly to a message from Don Buck with info and a perspective that will continue to interest the listers, so I am forwarding Will's message back onto the list to keep everybody up with our progress :-)

Stafford

>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:48:22 -0700
>From: "Will Bagley"
>To: Don Buck et al
>Subject: Re: Peter Lassen continued
>
>>Quoting Don Buck :
>>
>> > Wendell,
>> > It never occurred to me that Lassen might have gotten information about
>> > the
>> > terrain and topography in northern California from the Indians with whom
>> > he
>> > came in contact. Wherever he settled, Lassen had good relations with the
>> > local Indian groups. We'll never know but there is a good likelihood
>> > that this could have occurred.
>
>Lassen's trouble may have been he didn't listen to Indians more often. Had
>one been handy on that ridge in 1848, Lassen could have asked him where it
>led, and the Indian could have said, "Your ranch, you meathead!"
>
>All levity aside, I've been repeatedly surprised at how much Indians
>influenced the trails. After all, in both 1812 and 1824, fur traders
>learned how to get to South Pass from Indians.
>
>I also much appreciate this intriguing discussion: I've gotten some
>excellent feedback on my piece and I'd entirely overlooked Swain's
>references to a "middle passage," which suggests that men like Myers who
>knew the terrain also knew what a glance at Fremont's map would tell you:
>the trouble with using the Southern Route to Oregon was that it went to
>Oregon and invovled an enormous detour. So I'll look at the sources again
>and see if maybe Myer's references about making a "new cutoff" indicated he
>hoped to find a shortcut. (These ambitions simply disappeared, I suspect,
>after seeing the what it took out of the livestock to simply get to Rabbit
>Hole Springs.)
>
>But Don's more sympathetic perspective on Lassen is a good tonic for someone
>like me, who looks at trail promoters with a very skeptical eye. This
>discussion has established that there's no credible proof Lassen had any
>agents actively promoting the road to his ranch, and while he was obviously
>no genius, Lassen was not a scoundrel, either, which may be remarkable in
>itself, since California was overrun with scoundrels both before and after
>the gold rush. And I like an honest man, and so after stumbling across this
>today, I'm happy to share it: Charles Glass Gray, Off at Sunrise: The
>Overland Journal of Charles Glass Gray , 22 September 1849, 104. "Last
>night Lawson, whom we saw about a week ago arrived having given up his
>place in the exploring expedition & returns home on account of his bad
>health, he interested us very much by his accounts of California, even at
>his account we shall have a rough time of it & he puts as favourable a view
>of it as he can & at the same time have regard for the truth." Everything
>after "California" is italicized.
>
>Will Bagley